Slar Flar
Junior Member
#FreePoliwrath
Posts: 59
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Post by Slar Flar on May 22, 2016 18:17:05 GMT
Here are some noms I would like to see: A+ ---> SBetween Shell Smash and Coil sets, Huntail is a fearsome sweeper in ZU. The ability to go mixed and its ability to beat its checks with Sucker Punch allows it to deal with most of the common "answers" it has. Specially Defensive Wartortle with Mirror Coat is really the only answer that can fully deal with it. The strain it puts on teambuilding as the opponent needs to scout which set they are facing just pushes its capabilities of being one of the best wallbreaker after Simisear's departure, and for these reasons it should be S. Unranked ---> A-/ASo after Mightyena dropped, I immediately tried it out and its honestly been putting in a lot of work. All-out-Attacker sets with Crunch/Sucker Punch/Fire Fang/Play Rough is what I have been using and after it gets a few Moxie boosts, it really becomes scary. Its also pretty fast for an offensive pokemon and is quite powerful with a Life Orb attached. It does get somewhat walled by physically defensive Volbeat and Wigglytuff and faces fear competition with Krokorok, but it is pretty on par with it (despite lacking nice Ground STAB. Maybe A is a bit too much, but definitely A-. B+ ---> A-Seriously underrated threat right now. Steel typing is very good in ZU especially since our previously best Fire type got banned. Steel/Normal coverage is also not too bad as besides Wartortle, there aren't really many Steel resists in the tier. It has many opportunities to setup especially if it carries Substitute, and Shift Gear is such a good setup move for it. Lum Berry can also deal with Volbeat, and it won't be able to do much to you behind the Sub. Definitely should go to A- imo. So these are just some things I wanted to talk about before I give some more opinionsI I strongly disagre with huntail moving up, especially in the current meta we have honestly. Huntail is good but not that good. Honestly, it struggles setting up and staying alive after setting up early game, and late game if the opponent has a volbeat you're screwed. on top of that, it loses to some scarf mons that aren't exactly uncommon, especially mixed scarf simisage. Overall, I think A+ is fine for it The other two on the other hand are very agreeable. Although I can see Mightyena in B+ over A-, A- is still reasonable and something I can't really argue with. It's a good cleaner or revenge killer. Klang is also really good ESPECIALLY since simisear is gone. I would not run lum berry on it for volbeat, but instead rest talk as it is a very bulky steel. Additionally, sub shift gear or shift gear + 3 attacks are also good sets. Klang is v good in current meta.
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Post by skankovich on May 22, 2016 22:51:37 GMT
Yeah, I don't agree with Huntail, it's not very hard to wall at all- basically any grass type with some spdef investment can stomach a +2 hit. Its main thing is that it sets up pretty easily and can throw a few things in its last slot to nab some answers it couldn't otherwise. Furthermore, the prominence of Volbeat is a pain for it as it switches in with ease to basically every set (I've been trying like, lefties special smash w/ scald to nab a burn and make it difficult for the bug to come in often, but its not an elegant solution) and gets encore'd into setup or twaved, so its definitely not on the level of simis. In fact, I'd probably put it towards the lower end of A+ in this meta.
Mightyena I'm uh, not sure about. I haven't seen it do anything yet in any game really, it's really kinda weak, which isn't great in a meta that's shifting towards balance. Need to give it more time at the very least.
Klang I 100% agree with though, Simisear leaving did a lot for it.
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Post by funbot28 on May 22, 2016 23:08:13 GMT
Volbeat can counter any setup sweeper, especially when Fraxure was around as it was used as a check against the mini dragon (and it still got banned). There are quite a few ways to get around Volbeat shenanigans (Sub, Lum Berry, etc.). Also, most Choice Scarf users are susceptible to +2 Sucker Punch as well:
+2 252+ Atk Huntail Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Simisage: 237-279 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock +2 252+ Atk Huntail Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sawsbuck: 218-257 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock +2 252+ Atk Huntail Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Electabuzz: 257-303 (94.4 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also, most bulky Grass-types usually are OHKOed or 2HKOed pretty easily with Ice Beam variants:
+2 4 SpA Huntail Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Gourgeist-Large: 274-324 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock +2 4 SpA Huntail Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 232+ SpD Gogoat: 208-246 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery +2 4 SpA Huntail Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Quilladin: 256-302 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So unless you are sacking something to bring in a Grass-type, you usually cannot check Huntail all that well. I personally find Sp.Def Wartortle to be the only full counter to this thing, and this isn't even factoring Sub Coil sets.
Edit: Also is Origin down? I can't seem to login
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Post by skankovich on May 22, 2016 23:31:49 GMT
Sub/Lum aren't dealing with volbeat since it'll encore it into either setup or sub, so it doesn't work unfortunately. And 2hko'ing isn't really enough vs grass types, as they'll likely 1hko in return, and it needs to Smash for the 2hko, so you just switch in on the setup, no need to sac anything. There's also a bunch of more stall-specific answers like Furfrou, Meganium etc, but the likes of Volbeat/spdefQuill/spdefGeist/Wartortle are top-tier mons that can fit on a variety of playstyles to answer to the eel. Huntail is a great sweeper but it's certainly not the best wallbreaker in the tier, I think that would go to our #1 water in Simipour.
And yup, Volbeat is a good answer to almost any set up sweeper, but the difference between now and Fraxure era is that it's a better and way more relevant mon now than it was then, so being bait for the bug isn't great in this meta.
Oh and yeah, origin is ded for good :[
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Post by Chinese Pooh on Jun 13, 2016 3:03:32 GMT
The following are the most up-to-date changes to the VR:
Emolga to C+ Dustox to C+ Gourgeist-Large to A+ Volbeat to A+ Magmar to A- Quilladin to A Gigalith added to A- Servine to A- Ariados to D Lampent to B- Phione to C Solrock to C Lunatone added to to C+ Pignite to C+ Magcargo to C Bellossom to C+ Heatmor to B+ Klang to A- Mightyena to B Kricketune to E Octillery to B- Croconaw to C+ Meditite to C-
Chnages that we didn't go through with, but would like more discussion on the matter: Mightyena to A-/A Huntail to S
Oh right, forgot but some minor edits as well Snover added to D Spinda to E Farfetch'd and Unown to E, as well as Yamask being unranked Will probably be adding some electric rodents not named Emolga and Pikachu down there as well.
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Post by skankovich on Jun 16, 2016 20:33:11 GMT
A few moves I feel are needed:
Duosion to A-[ : CM and SpDef are both great sets that apply a lot of pressure to teams. Easily deserves this spot.
Seviper to B : Let's be real, this is super out of place in A-. Slow and frail, it's a decent wallbreaker or mediocre scarfer at best.
Meganium to B : Only reaaaally has a niche on stall, everything else it does is kinda mediocre and generally outclassed (I guess there's SD? But that's so easily walled anyway). Very difficult to consider using over Geist/Quill/Servine/Goat.
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Post by funbot28 on Jun 20, 2016 23:13:03 GMT
Here are my own noms: A+ -> SElectabuzz is such a great pokemon in the current meta thanks to how reliable and versatile it is with checking and dishing out consistent damage against a wide variety of the top threats. It is also very good at gaining momentum due to how many switchins it forces because of its fantastic coverage. Checking it becomes very difficult due to the fact that it is always gaining momentum, and it provides so much support for offensive mons to come in safely. Definitely should be placed in the top. A- -> AWartortle is practically the only viable hazard remover in the tier. This wouldn't be so important if FU didn't have viable hazard setters in Glalie and Krokorok, which is why Wartortle is so ambiguous for offensive teams. It also pertains the bulk to check many top tier threats in Simipour, Huntail, Magmar, and Golduck thanks to its great defensive typing. Its so splashable and holds in important role in the meta that grants it a rise in my eyes. B+ -> A-/AOk so I have been using Vanilluxe a lot recently with a few other players and holy shit this things hits so hard. Ice is an amazing offensive type in this tier due to the lack of reliable resistances (Water-types do not count because of Freeze Dry). With a Life Orb and an Automize/Rock Polish under its belt, Vanilluxe can easily sweep teams that are not prepared for it, which is why it should raise up. B+ -> A-Wigglytuff is a really good offensive tank that could pass huge Wishes to your team quite easily. It can become very difficult to 2HKO it if it is invested in the appropriate stat and can proceed to heal itself or other teammates in the process. It also can set up Stealth Rocks with an offensive set, or break stuff with Choice Specs (as Slar Flar knows...). Really diverse mon that should rise. B- -> B/B+ Scraggy is a great setup sweeper with Dragon Dance and Bulk Up in conjunction with Moxie and Shed Skin respectively. Dark/Fighting is also really good offensively and Eviolite gives it decent bulk that gives it more setup opportunities. Edit: Also agree with all skankovich's noms as well
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Post by Chinese Pooh on Jun 21, 2016 9:12:34 GMT
The following are the most recent changes to the VR:
Duosion to A- Meganium to B Wartortle to A Vanilluxe to A- Wigglytuff to A- Scraggy to B Minun to E Plusle to E
The following are nomination(s) that have not gone through, but would like more discussion on the matter: Electabuzz to S
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Post by Chinese Pooh on Jul 29, 2016 9:07:24 GMT
It's late at night, so sorry if this post is absolute garbage in advance, but I wanted to get this oiut if the way now rather than later.
So Electabuzz is now S rank, while I was on the fence about this, I think I can now safely say that Electabuzz is one of, if not the best Pokémon in the tier. Having amazing offensive capabilities, as well as defensive syngery with a vast majority oif the tier, good versatility and overall great utility is excellent for FU. There's never really a team that people don't immediately consider slapping on Electabuzz because it's just that splashable and is an amazing glue for many teams to have. Access to strong STAB moves in Thunderbolt, as well as Volt Switch means it is able to dish out damage or be able to grain momentum during a match, which is crucial in such an offensive meta. Not to mention that many of its "counters" such as Hippopotas or Specially Defensive Gogoat can not afford to mindless switch in due to fear of a potential Toxic that cripples them throughout entire match, and many electric checks such as Krokorok aren't entirely safe either as Electabuzz can simply Focus Blast to secure the OHKO (provided it is an Eviolite variant). All of this paired with its great defenses paired with eviolite make Electabuzz a dangerous threat to face. While it does admittedly have a bit of a shallow movepool, this is honestly such as small problem for it just due to how much it can already bring to the table.
Someone I talked to (sorry if I don't remember who you are) suggested Plusle and Minun be moved up to D, and quite honestly I heavily disagree. While being a potential Nasty Plot sweeper seems nice and all, outside of a boost it lacks any initial power to it, which means it's near mandatory to provide a set up opportunity for it. Not only that, but the above mentioned Electabuzz, who has better initial special attack, higher speed and better bulk is not only a better overall specially offensive Electric Type, but is just easier to build around or to just put onto a team. As far as other Nasty Plot users go, There is every little reason in using it over other NP users such as Girafarig, who offers (marginally) better bulk, but also has access to excellent dual stabs in Normal and Psychic. Hypno is also an underrated and good option for Nasty Plot as well due to its great bulk and potential to pull off a slow Baton Pass for a NP recipient. Persian, while being frailer and a bit weaker than Plusle also has an unmatched, unboosted speed tier, and has a much easier time cleaning up late game due to it's amazing coverage, and I suspect I don't really need to explain why Simisage or Simipour are better NP users. I'm not entirely opposed to a Plusle rise to D rank if enough evidence is provided, but with better Electric types available and better Nasty Plot users available I just see little reason for them to even be D, and no, I'm not even considering Minun because honestly, the added bulk to Minun seems extremely unnecessary as it isn't going to help it live hits any better than Plusle, and the added special attack is just overall better.
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Post by Chinese Pooh on Aug 13, 2016 2:52:03 GMT
Ariados from D to C- Frillish added to D Illumise from D to B Jumpluff added to A+ Kricketune from E to C Lickilicky added to A+
These changes are mostly placeholder rankings for these Pokémon for now as not much discussion was put into actually ranking them.
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Post by Chinese Pooh on Aug 28, 2016 0:33:09 GMT
So I made some minor changes to the V.R.
Stantler has been added C+ Chimecho has been added to C Castform has been added to D Cherrim has been added to D Mothim has been added to D Wormadam-Sandy has been added to D
And anything else that wasn't ranked prior has been added to E, while E wasn't a top priority, I felt it needed to be done sooner or later.
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Post by 5gen on Sept 12, 2016 23:02:59 GMT
Got some mons I would like to nom Rumble World sprites are amazing
B+ to A-
Zweilous' ability to check a wide range of types (grass, electric, water, dark) and wallbreak give it a great place in the current meta. Zwei can fit onto both offensive or defensive teams, utilizing Banded, LO, or Sp Def Rest-Talk sets. It's Band/LO sets are extremely difficult to switch into and can easily decimate slower teams. Only real downsides are the accuracy drop from Hustle, slow-ish speed (215 if neutral) and being choice locked into Outrage. Rest-Talk can function as a tank or special wall depending on the team and it's really bulky with the Eviolite boost being able to check threats like Electabuzz, Simipour, special Simisage, Huntail etc. 252 SpA Life Orb Simisage Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Zweilous: 169-200 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO (Crunch is doing 56-66.3%)A+ to S
Ever since it dropped, Lickilicky has been the most versatile and splashable mon in the tier imo, it's literally unwallable and the wall to break (next to Gourg for walls). The reason I describe it with these traits is simple: 110/85/95/80/95/50 stat spread, gigantic movepool, and Oblivious (can't be Taunted). Licky can run a number of offensive sets (CB, LO Mixed, SD, Curse) and a Wish Pass one (Dragon Tail is optional over Knock Off here). Of course, it's kinda subjective as to how well it runs each set but they are all highly effective. For example, the Choice Band variant is walled by Gourgeist-L, but it can run LO Fire Blast/Ice Beam to pick up the 2HKO. The Wish Pass set is a staple for defensive teams as it can pass those fat Wishes and also hinder stuff with Knock Off/phaze with DTail. SD can function as your early game breaker or bulky wincon, opting for Return/Knock Off/Eq or other coverage. Curse is another option as it fits on every style bar HO because it still walls half the tier and acts as a wincon. A to A+
Probably the most controversial of the bunch but I believe it's A+ material. It's hard to pick something other than Lairon over this as your SR user simply because it performs consistently well and you know what you're gonna get from using it. Electric/Psychic immunities, Rocks, great STABs in Knock Off/EQ, Taunt, and Intimidate and Moxie as abilities. In the current meta which leans to the offensive side, Krokorok really thrives. It can check common stuff like Electabuzz, Magmar, Mightyena, Steel-types and spam Knock Off freely. Another less used set is Scarf Moxie or Moxie Offensive which is good at revenge-killing and sweeping late game. D to C-/C
A fun little NFE I've been trying as of late. Frillish was recently showcased in FU Spotlight so I decided to also bring it up here. In a nutshell, Frillish is a "bulky" (55/50/85 bulk) water unlike any other. Water/Ghost+Water Absorb give this little jellyfish 3 immunities (Water/Normal/Fighting), combine that with Recover, Wisp, and Taunt and you got yourself a surprisingly good wall. 4 SpA Life Orb Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 40 SpD Eviolite Frillish: 265-312 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Jumpluff Seed Bomb vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 116-138 (37 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 144-172 (46 - 54.9%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO 252+ Atk Lairon Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 157-186 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Just a few noteworthy calcs that showcase it's ability to check and eat up hits from common pokemon. It will also hardwall most normals (bar Raticate and Sub Regi), Magmar, Beartic, Huntail, Duosion (Taunts it), non-Dark Pulse Frogadier, Klang and is can pivot into a good chunk of the tier. too lazy to write more about it so here's post for FU spotlight: futier.boards.net/post/158
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Post by Chinese Pooh on Sept 20, 2016 5:40:13 GMT
Munchlax added to B- ( I don't know if someone just didn't add this before or if someone just took it off the VR?) Lickilicky to S Frillish to C-
Changes that could use discussion
Gourgeist-Large to S Krokorok to A+ Seviper to B- Snover unranked Staryu to D/C- Trapinch to B- Tyrunt unranked Zweilous to A-
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Post by Fannyfan on Sept 20, 2016 11:45:55 GMT
Staryu Unranked to D/C-. Agree Staryu I firmly believe deserves to be ranked, as an alternative hazard remover to Wartortle. For one, it has much higher speed than tortle. Base 85 vs tortle's base 58. Even without investment, Staryu outspeeds pretty much every defensive Pokemon and it's not hard with specific speed investment, to outspeed things like Heatmor or Zweilous. Going along with that, it has more firepower than tortle. Now, base 70 isn't amazing or even that good, but it has enough coverage to do some damage. One of the best tools it has however, is recover. Unlike tortle, Staryu has recover to help it stay healthy throughout the match. Now Staryu isn't amazing by any means. Its bulk is not the best, even though it has access to recover, it's power is nothing to write home about, it also doesn't have foresight like tortle. Though, I believe the positives make it have a niche, and it should be ranked. Not too high, D or C- is fine. I don't have much else of an opinion on the noms. I agree with Krok and Zwei, but I'll go into why at a later date possibly. Have a nice day.
I forgot to add Staryu has Natural Cure, and when combined with recover, makes it a good status sponge. Sorry about the double post, but I didn't see an edit button (top right of post)
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Post by 5gen on Sept 21, 2016 0:13:21 GMT
Gourgeist-Large to S -->Agree This thing is the defensive behemoth of the tier (next to Licky) imo. It's typing allows it to switch into a good chunk of the tier: Huntail, Normal-types, Ground moves, Gigalith etc just to name some. Gourg also runs Colbur to check Mightyena, Krokorok and general Knock Off users to stomach a hit and Wisp them. On that note, Gourgeist-Large can whittle and cripple many pokemon with burns or Leech Seed. Reliable recovery in Synthesis gives it's substantial longevity too.
Another lesser used set on Gourg-Large is Choice Band. Yeah it might be more exploitable, but it makes up for it in power, surprise and it already has good natural bulk. Reasonable base 69 (174 uninvested) means it can creep slower things such as Huntail. - 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisage: 127-150 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pidgeot: 274-324 (89.2 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Seed Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 181-214 (66.5 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Large Explosion vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Quilladin: 180-212 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Krokorok to A+--> Agree Already made this nom so I won't go into detail. Premier Stealth Rock user in the tier, STAB Knock Off and Earthquake threaten a lot of switch-ins, has good defensive utility due to typing, Eviolite and Intimidate. Really don't understand how it didn't rise, but that's obviously open for discussion.
Seviper to B- -->Disagree Not that anything has really changed for it to become worse bar Lickilicky dropping. Meta is still offensive, Seviper still breaks down defensive cores and dent more frail pokemon. The biggest flaws it has is low base 65 speed and poor bulk. It still hits really hard with dual 100 offenses, Sludge Wave/Poison Jab and amazing coverage (Ice Beam, Flamethrower, EQ, Giga Drain, Sucker Punch and Knock Off). The unbanning of Sticky Web helps Seviper's viability in the sense that it fits onto more teams potentially and is able to outspeed more mons.
Staryu to D/C- -->Agree Don’t wanna repeat too much of what Fanny said, but I think Staryu deserves to get ranked. I think the best comparison you can make (as Fanny did) is to Wartortle. In my eyes, Staryu is basically a faster, more frail Tortle but still has the useful niche of Recovery. It’s like a lesser Wartortle that fits offense and it can still find opportunities to Spin hazards.
Zweilous to A- -->Agree Another nom I made recently so I wanna be concise here. I feel Zwei is A- worthy because of the destructive power of CB sets, the immense special bulk of Rest-Talk, and the fact it retains good defensive and offensive presence no matter the set (typing lets it blanket check various types).
Haven't used or faced the other pokes in the discussion points enough to have an opinion.
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