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Post by Fannyfan on Oct 17, 2016 19:25:58 GMT
Moar thoughts
Foongus Unranked to D Disagree Foongus has one thing going for it: Spore. Otherwise, it is dreadfully outclassed by Quilladin as a bulky grass because Quill is a lot bulkier, and has spikes support. Heck, if you want another grass/poison bulky grass, Ivysaur outclasses it. It has more bulk and off presence. I don't think spore is a big enough niche to be ranked, so it should remain unranked.
Tentacool D to C- Agree Tentacool as a defensive spinner is interesting. It has great 100 SpDef being boosted by eviolite letting it eat up a lot of special hits. However, it has low physical defense even with eviolite, letting a lot of physical hits do a lot of damage. Its poison typing lets it tank focus blasts while being neutral to grass to get rid of one of its weaknesses. However, its poison typing combined with low physical bulk, any stray quake is going to end its life. It does have some nice role compression tho, with spinner, t-spikes setter and somewhat water and fire check. It doesn't get reliable recovery tho, which sucks. I do think it has enough interesting niches to put it with stuff like magnemite, so I think it would fit in C-
The rest I have no opinion on. Have a nice day
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Post by machoker on Oct 18, 2016 1:27:04 GMT
Hey so I been making new teams for the 2nd and 3rd round of the tournament, and I found this little gem that I feel it has been overlooked because of certain gear. Honedge C- to B/B+? I feel like the reason this is so low is simply because it is often used over the bulkier klang. But I like to make a case that it is actually not over-classed by it. Honedge has a few weapons that separate it over Klang: a strong fighting type coverage, stab priority, and dual stab.Moreover, after one only 1 SD honedge is a force to be reckon with and nowhere near as passive as klang.Furthermore, Honedge's solid physical bulk ,great steel/ghost type and Eviolite allow it to easily get +4 or even +6 and sweep a team. But replays speak louder than words so I like to leave these two as proof: replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-458569661replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-459079263Cheers!
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Post by Chinese Pooh on Oct 19, 2016 22:31:26 GMT
Diglett---> D Glaceon ---> Top of B+ Tentacool ---> C- Honedge ---> Low B- Tyrunt Unranked Dwebble ---> C+ Discussion Points Whirlipede ---> C or C+ Heatmor ---> Low A- Servine ---> A Scraggy ---> B+ Munchlax ---> B Hippopotas ---> B+ Staryu ---> C-
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Post by Gary2346 on Oct 20, 2016 4:28:32 GMT
Whirlipede is pretty cool and I think it should definitely move up, I'd honestly put it in B-. Being one of the very few things in FU that can wall the hell out of Simisage, one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier, is incredibly useful. On top of that, it has access to both Spikes and T-Spikes, which is unique and invaluable to many teams. With Eviolite it's surprisingly fat, as it is able to take multiple hits from the physical side before going down. I very much dislike suicide leads in FU that aren't Sticky Webbers or Dwebble, and I think Whirlipede's ability to set up hazards is much more effective than Venipede, so it should be ranked higher.
Heatmor is an insanely underrated wallbreaker. While Simisage is very hard to pass up on most of the time, Heatmor's STAB Fire Blast can be consistently spammed unlike Leaf Storm, and like Simisage its coverage is near perfect between Superpower, Giga Drain, and Knock Off. The combination of Fire Blast and Superpower is enough to 2HKO Licky, and with Knock Off it can heavily cripple Tortle and other fat waters on the switch, most of them which can be 2HKOed by Giga Drain afterword. It has the capability of dismantling most of the commonly used cores such as Licky + Geist or Quilladin + Tortle. Personally I really like Expert Belt, but Life Orb is also a solid option. Flash Fire is also a great ability, as it can soft check Magmar or other Fire-types for that matter. While it lacks the Speed, bulk, and utility of Magmar, it's far more useful as a wallbreaker and I agree that it should be moved up.
I don't have much experience with Servine so I'll skip that one. Scraggy on the other hand, is one of my favorite win cons to use in the tier. For the most part I've seen three successful sets, those being Bulk Up, offensive and bulky DD. Out of all three of them, bulky DD has been the most consistent by far IMO, as it utilizes Scraggy's insane bulk and useful resistances to set up on lots of passive Pokemon. Offensively its STAB combo is one of the best in the tier, because Fighting- and Dark are two types which FU lacks answers too, especially when they are combined. Shed Skin lets Scraggy run Rest on its DD sets so it can afford to set up against fat mons like Gourgeist that might try to burn it, but it can repeatedly obtain boots and Rest off the damage. Shed Skin only helps this by speeding up the process and allowing Scraggy to set up more, while shrugging off potential status without the need to Rest it off. Even without a boost, Knock Off is insane utility, and while Scraggy isn't that strong, High Jump Kick is strong enough that it makes up for its lower base Attack. The only huge issue with Scraggy is that it's completely useless versus Fairy-types, but once they're gone, it just auto-wins a lot of the time because it's difficult to kill. Besides outside of Wigglytuff, most Fairy-types are huge momentum killers and can only be fit onto bulkier teams, plus all of them hate being knocked off. I'd honestly put it in low A-, it's very good, and is an excellent choice on many teams.
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Post by 5gen on Oct 21, 2016 0:36:53 GMT
Servine to A --> Agree
Servine is an insanely good offensive Grass-type, possibly the best in the tier. Has immediate power and set up due to Contrary Leaf Storm, staying power through Sub+Synthesis, and utility options via Knock Off, Glare, and Leech Seed. Servine also brings some key defensive presence most notably checking Simipour and Electabuzz for offensive teams.
Munchlax to B --> Disagree
Honestly I find little reason to use this when Lickilicky is omnipresent. The niche is Thick Fat and more special bulk with Eviolite. Lickilicky can pull off virtually any role you'd want Munch to fill and then some so I don't see it worthy of a rise as long as Licky is here.
Hippopotas to B+ --> Disagree
Hippo brings some really good role compression to teams (notably checking Electrics and physical attackers, provides SR and phazing), but struggles against some of the tier's most common pokemon in the Simis, Wartortle, Gourg-L, and Jumpluff. Compared to things within its rank Hippopotas outclasses most of them. On the downside it isn't B+ material currently simply because those mons are better than it (bar Pikachu and Swalot imo) and how well teams naturally deal with it.
Staryu to C- --> Agree
This is where pokemon with acceptable and usable niches fit, which suits Staryu perfectly. More specifically, Staryu is a faster more frail Wartortle with reliable recovery, slight offensive presence, and Twave. The serious lack of Spinners actually gives some justification for Staryu's use so I can see it being C-.
My own noms
Dustox to B-
I've been testing Dustox lately using two sets; Quiver Dance+Iron Defense and Defensive Defog. The former is able to set up or 1v1 a ton of mons in the tier and requires little support to do its job. Dustox fits on bulky offense or stall fairly easily, as it does a great job of checking offensive Grass-types (i.e Servine or Simisage) and switching into Fighting-types not named Meditite. Also acts as a fantastic wincon. Counter play to this Dustox set is usually Taunt, Encore, or a strong Fire- or Flying-type. Being immune to Scald burns due to Shield Dust and Toxic also increases Dustox's longevity and ability to switch in. The latter set in Defog also switches into the same stuff but provides hazard removal and better pivoting via U-Turn.
Trapinch to B
There is one reason to use Trapinch, and that reason is Arena Trap. It enables what is otherwise a mediocre Ground-type to become a poke with a standalone niche in the tier. On the surface Trapinch's 45/45/45 bulk is bad but the Eviolite boost goes a long way. For example, specially invested Trapinch reliably traps and beats Electabuzz while the standard 252 HP/56 Def/200 SpD Careful allows it to beat Lairon from full. In the current meta it pairs really well with Jumpluff, Butterfree, Sawsbuck etc...things that appreciate Steel-, Electric-, or Fire-types heavily weakened.
Pikachu to B/B-
I find Pikachu struggles heavily in the current meta. It doesn't have the same power as Luxray to break through defensive teams and lacks the speed and bulk of Electabuzz to fair well vs offense. Pikachu only really shines on Webs or Hazard Stack. The former makes up for its naturally low speed for an offensive poke and the latter provides crucial chip damage for Wild Charge to break past bulky mons like Licky and Espeed/Fake Out to revenge kill frailer pokes. Basically, Pikachu is outclassed and teams naturally prepare for it via bulky Grass or Ground.
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Post by Fannyfan on Oct 21, 2016 18:06:20 GMT
Time for my thoughts on the noms. Yay.
Whirlipede ---> C or C+ Agree
Don't want to repeat too many things here, because Gary really got it, but Whirlipede is a spiker with great bulk, is a check to one of the most threatening mons in the tier (Simisage), and speed boost to help it get spikes up. Boost this baby to C+ man
Heatmor ---> Low A- Disagree
This is where I disagree with Gary. Now, there's no question Heatmor is a great wallbreaker. However, Magmar is overall superior. It's like like Simipour vs Octillery, where the extra speed means a lot, and the faster one doesn't have that much lower offenses. The slower one has a better movepool, but is ranked lower. Now, of course Heatmor is better than Octillery, that's why it's ranked a lot higher. But Magmar outclasses it in every area except wallbreaking, so I think the ranks should reflect that.
Servine ---> A Agree
5gen covered this well, so I don't have too much to add, but Servine is a great force in the Meta and should be ranked as such. That is all.
Scraggy ---> B+ Agree
Gary covered this one well, but yeah, this thing deserves B+. It sets up on so much, has great offenses after a boost or two, and we have a lack of good fairy types to exploit its big weakness to em. Maybe A-, though that is more debatable.
Staryu ---> C- Agree
I agree with 5gen, that the lack of spinners leads to Staryu having an acceptable niche worthy of C-. Not really much to add, just showing support for my baby
That's all. Have a nice day.
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Post by skankovich on Oct 22, 2016 22:40:12 GMT
Servine's rise has been due for a long time. Fantastic bulk and a concise but useful moveset means its a threat to every playstyle, checks some of the best mons in the meta, brings tonnes of utility, even punishes defog to an extent... really good mon.
Wait when did Whirlipede go all the way down to D anyway? It needs to be way higher, C+ definitely- bulky hazard setter that checks a lot of stuff and can set up a few layers thanks to speed boost, a simple but generally effective mon.
Not sure I agree with the Heatmor nom, it's a mon with great coverage and power but its speed, typing and underwhelming bulk don't do it many favours. Without setup it doesn't overly threaten stall much in my experience, because you're likely carrying a spdef mon with a fighting resist to compliment licki anyway, and it doesn't have the setup moves to power past raw bulk. Against balance its slownes comes into play and it really struggles to come in on anything, at best probably switching into Geist or Illumise (It's not really good at checking Magmar, as even with LO nothing it does 2hkos while Mag 2hkos it with Focus Blast), at which point it will be difficult to work around though. Against more offensive teams, well, it's a slow wallbreaker so that was never a matchup in its favour, so it's not worth going into. Just not feeling it rising tbh, too much competition with Magmar and its niche with mag in the tier is too small for A- imo.
Agree with Scraggy, nice bulky wincon with great STABs and relative ease setting up, fits in B+. Main issue with moving higher imo is Simis, who either outspeed the DD set at +1 and kill with superpower/focus blast, or can switch into bulk up and 2hko or set up while not taking too much from a +1 knock off.
Munch to B makes sense, less of a niche with licki here. Titanic spdef is still really great though, so shouldn't go further.
Hippo... idk, I use it a lot and while it's never bad it never really surprises me, like it gets its job done but it doesn't wall as much as I'd like. I just don;t think Ground typing is all that great in the tier really, and reliance on eviolite hurts it a lot. I'd keep it B.
Staryu, yeah sure why not lol. With barely any spinners it can make C- with its decent enough speed and spattk.
And a long one, really disagree with Pikachu nom, I'd definitely say it's at least just as viable as Luxray. Espeed is not to be messed around with- literally every pokemon faster than pika is taking 2hko'd by it, some like Rat and the Simis taking upwards of 60 while Krow straight up dies after rocks. This is such a useful tool for almost every team out there, reliable strong priority that outspeeds all other priority in the tier, and it's backed up by powerful moves and coverage that makes it threaten most things slower than it. Knock Off is basically mandatory, and it's actually one of the strongest in the tier- it hits harder than even adamant krok. Phys def Geist-L is taking 92% minimum from 2 knocks with rocks up, it 2hkos offensive Goat after rocks, CM Duosion is 2hko'd, etc. Wild Charge is the STAB, and does what it says on the tin, but the recoil is one of the bigger issues in my experience thanks to pika's miniscule hp. The last slot is where Pikachu's main flaw comes in imo and that's that it has to choose what walls it. Brick Break beats Lairon, Zweilous and Lickilicky (well, Wild Charge beats licki too, but that recoil is a killer), HP Ice with some spattk investment 2hko's Geist after rocks (So you can bop it even if colbur), and is likely to kill phys def Quill, Hippo and Servine.
So really, pikachu brings a ridiculous amount to any team offensively, with both very strong reliable priority and decent wallbreaking capabilities. The main thing ofc is that it has negative switchin opportunities and so you need to rely on double switching and slow pivots such as Illumise to get it in- but all the aforementioned capabilities definitely make it B+ worthy imo.
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Post by Chinese Pooh on Oct 25, 2016 10:16:13 GMT
Dewgong ---> E Graveler ---> unranked Sudowoodo ---> E Servine ---> A Whirlipede ---> C+ Staryu ---> C+ Anorith ---> C+ Dustox ---> bottom of B- Heatmor ---> bottom of A- Scraggy ---> top of B+ Carvanha ---> C+ Discussion points Ditto ---> C+ Palpitoad ---> C Lunatone ---> C- Phione ---> E Onix ---> C- Cherrim ---> E Pidgeot ---> B Fearow ---> B Weepinbell ---> D Pikachu ---> B Trapinch ---> B
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marogod
New Member
Yeah, i'm simply better
Posts: 1
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Post by marogod on Oct 25, 2016 10:58:10 GMT
Ditto ---> C+ agree
Yeah basically this thing has the obvious "im useful but useless" thing going on...Ditto will always be an odd case on any VR but currently imposter is too matchup dependent with the mix of styles and the preparation for the things it copys ie. Offensive Licki,Huntail ect.
Palpitoad ---> C agree
it's on the role compendium for gods sake. It's got a rather unique role compression being a Stealth Rock setter that is an Electric,Water,Rock and Steel switch in which can be invaluable for quite a few teams and has a solid case for being put higher up on the VR but as is can be a good middle ground until more testing is done.
Phione ---> E
I see practically no reason to ever want to use this especially with Simipour in the tier let alone the other water options available.
Onix/Weepinbell ---> Unsure
Sun to be quite honest is just mediocre at best...however one issue i have is that they have the potential to be simply swapped which seems pointless considering the only time you will ever want to use either mon is on Sun teams. that being said i personally am no avid Sun player but they should be put together in the same rank if it be C- or D.
Cherrim ---> E disagree
Not gonna lie this is kinda decent...not high ranking decent but this makes for a very useful offensive check to a few pokemon thanks to its, questionably good or bad, coverage with a Hidden Power of choice (generally Ice or Ground) and Dazzling Gleam which is fairly useful for Dark Types in Zweilous,Mightyena and Scraggy all of which are rather threatening. Of course the main reason to ever use this over other Grasses is Healing Wish which is a fairly clutch option especially with the plethora of fat pokemon that lack recovery Offensive Lickilicky being the best example. D seems fine for now.
Will comment on a few things later on
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Post by Gary2346 on Oct 29, 2016 23:16:15 GMT
Okay I have a very biased opinion on Fearow vs Pidgeot, but I still stand by it because I've used Fearow a significant amount throughout the time I've played FU. I think Fearow is better than Pidgeot in almost every way, and I really want the VR to reflect that by separating them by at least a rank. Pidgeot looks more appealing to most players because of its 101 Speed stat which lets it Speed tie Simis, and Brave Bird. When it comes down to it, forcing a Speed tie with the Simis is almost always in favor of the Simis because unless you're CB or something you wont be OHKOing them, and both Sage and Pour have several options to straight OHKO Pidgeot with. Brave Bird is a much better Flying STAB than Drill Peck, but seeing as how most people use Pidgeot as a Defogger, it heavily compromises its bulk and overall longevity, while Drill Peck can be easily spammed and can still accomplish what it needs to do, albeit weaker overall. Besides choiced Pidgeot is terrible because it is completely walled by any Rock or Steel-type which is FU full of, unless you're running special Pidgeot, but that's another story. Fearow may not be able to completely destroy stuff like Gigalith, Klang, or even Lairon, but Drill Run at least gives it a weapon that prevents them from mindlessly switching into Fearow every time without expecting any repercussions, and on top of that, 2HKOing one of the best answers to Flying and Normal-types in the tier, Lairon, is huge and is something Pidgeot can't do. Fearow's Ground coverage is absolutely enough to make it better than Pidgeot on an offensive standpoint, and as for its lesser bulk, again, why would you ever use Defog Pidgeot in a tier where almost every Rocker will beat you 1v1? Lairon and Gigalith switch in as you Defog, they set up rocks again as you U-turn, same goes for something like Hippo I guess unless you carry Toxic. You're also letting Buzz in for free, on top of so many other set up sweepers that can just use its passiveness as bait. Vibrava does a much better job as a Defogger because it can actually beat all Rock-types 1v1, and as a lot of defensive utility to back it up because of its typing and ability. Speaking of which, why the fuck is the only good Defogger in the tier B-? B is definitely more fit for it, because unlike Tortle it isn't cock blocked by Gourgeist and it completely walls non HP Ice Magmar and Heatmor, which is really cool. It checks plenty of other things too, it has decent bulk with Eviolite, reliable recovery, U-turn, and an immunity to EQ. It's a great glue Pokemon. Bulky Pidgeot is shit.
As for special Pidgeot, why would you ever use that when MixKrow exists? Special Pidgeot would be worth using if it had a higher SpA that made it worth risking Hurricane misses, but even when it does hit, it's not even dealing THAT much damage for how strong Hurricane is. It's literally only good for catching people off guard, but that's VERY easy to scout. MixKrow accomplishes the same shit beating Lairon and heavily denting Klang, as well as having a reliable Flying-type STAB in Brave Bird, and priority Sucker. Pidgeot's Speed is the only thing it has going for it, but it doesn't matter nearly as much when Krow just beats so many more things.
Overall, I just think Pidgeot is outclassed in almost every major role offensively and defensively. No, it's not a bad Pokemon at all, and it would be quite good if Fearow or Murkrow didn't exist, but they do, so yeah. I'd honestly drop Pidgeot to C+ because it's very niche and situational. Fearow is better than most of the shit in B IMO because it's a great revenge killer (Choice Scarf Double Edge late game is quite scary) and can also punch pretty big holes with CB, and if you must use Defog it can be okay with that too on offense since u don't auto lose to Lairon. I'd move Fearow to either low or mid B+.
tl;dr
Fearow ---> Low/Mid B+ Pidgeot ---> C+ Vibrava ---> Mid B
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Post by 5gen on Oct 30, 2016 21:02:05 GMT
Ditto ---> C+ Agree Ditto will always have that niche of copying stats and being set up deterent. It is very match up reliant though, and isn't very useful vs defensive teams, so Ditto tends to rarely put in work.
Palpitoad ---> C Agree Palpitoad is such a great mon in terms of role compression. Access to Stealth Rock, a Water-type immunity with Water Absorb, and Palp's Water/Ground typing provides amazing defensive utility (only weak to Grass, immune to Electric, resists Rock, Fire, and Steel). It's able to very easily fit on defensive oriented teams or form a defensive backbone for Balance alongside Gourgeist-L for example.
Lunatone ---> C- Agree I rarely, if ever, see Lunatone being used. As a Rocker, it's mediocre because it gets pressured so easily and RP/CM sets are rarely getting set up opportunities. Lunatone has glaring weaknesses to common types such as Water, Grass, and Dark and just gets U-Turned on by the Normal- or Flying-types it wants to check. As a result of these down traits Lunatone is really difficult to fit onto a team and/or build around successfully.
Phione ---> D (E is too much) I hear a lot of talk saying Phione is outclassed as a Water-type, which is true for the most part. Going to E is outright bashing Phione's niches and place in the meta. No other Water-type in the tier will give the combination of utility and offensive momentum Phione does. Heal Bell/U-Turn/Knock Off/Scald alongside 80 base stats across the board is just way too good to be E. Now it may look like Phione is some hidden gem, but admittedly it struggles to consistently put in work and justify use over other bulky Waters (Wartortle, Frillish, Palpitoad, Walrein for example). Basically Phione is hard to fit on teams because of the specific role it tries to fill in Utility Water-type.
Onix ---> C- Disagree Should stay where it is in D. Fills a very specific niche in Suicide Lead on Weather and other than that Krokorok is better every time.
Cherrim ---> E Disagree Cherrim is the perfect example of D rank;something that is terrible but serves a usable niche. It is heavily outclassed by offensive Grass-types Simisage, Servine, Meganium, Jumpluff, and Gogoat because they offer more to a team. Cherrim has average bulk, decent base 85 Speed, and moderate Special Attack which allow it to pull off Choice sets alongside Healing Wish. This is Cherrim's sole niche: Healing Wish. It enables Cherrim to be justified over other Grass-types it's the only one with access to it.
Pidgeot ---> B Agree Edit: After talking over Pidgeot with the guys on discord I've changed my mind on Pidgeot. I was judging it more so as a Defog user in comparison to Fearow, but that was flawed on my part because Defog Fearow isn't a good set (favors Choice sets). Defog Pidgeot is the set to use but it can also opt for Work Up to break stall. Problem with Work Up is that Mixed Murkrow will generally outperform it due to again, having more power and better move choices (Heat Wave, Sucker, Prankster Twave to name some). Pidgeot also has slightly better bulk which can come in handy (in a nutshell): 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeot: 281-333 (91.5 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO (has a shot to win speed tie) 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Fearow: 312-369 (115.1 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Krokorok Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fearow: 166-196 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krokorok Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pidgeot: 147-174 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO (can Roost off damage after item is removed)
Basically, both physical and special Pidgeot are outclassed by Fearow and Murkrow respectively, but Defog alongside Pidgeot's other sets is enough for B.
Pidgeot to C+ is absurd Gary, that's never going to happen.
Fearow ---> B Agree Fearow is a force to be reckoned with in the current meta. Choice Band tears through bulky cores like Lickilicky+Gourg-L+Steel-type with some prediction. Choice Scarf is an amazing revenge killer but can't really take priority moves. It faces a lot of competition as a Defog user and has poor defensive typing/utility so it can struggle to fit onto teams. However Fearow does check a significant portion of the tier and doesn't allow as many free switches as other Flying-types.
Weepinbell ---> C- (D is too much) Recently Heat Rock was unbanned, which was the primary aspect restricting Weepinbell's viability. Now it's much easier to abuse sun but the meta currently is naturally making it difficult use it to success. For example, Weepenbell cannot break past bulky pokemon like Lickilicky, Noctowl, and is outsped by +1 max Speed base 80's and up. That being said, pokemon commonly paired with it on sun such as Sawbuck or Magmar can bust through the things it struggles with. Pikachu ---> B Disagree
I know I was the one who originally nominated Pikachu to drop but after using it more extensively B+ is where it should stand. I had compared it with Luxray and Electabuzz as offensive Electric-types, and my logic was flawed. It may not have the bulk and raw power of a CB Luxray, but Light Ball allows Pikachu to switch up moves and as a result not be as prediction reliant. Access to Knock Off helps Pikachu break down defensive cores while Extreme Speed 2HKO's most of what outspeeds it. In comparison to Electabuzz, Pikachu is much better at breaking teams down imo (not nearly as good defensively though). This is mainly due to Pikachu's extensive movepool and raw power. Trapinch ---> B Agree
Another nom I made recently so I'm just going to link the post as nothing has really changed for it.
Vibrava ---> B Agree Vibrava is one of the only hazard removers in the that has a good match up vs most rockers. Defensively it's typing is great, with Ground / Dragon + Levitate providing immunities to Electric- and Ground-type attacks. Also provides key resists to Rock- and Fire-types. Another positive trait for Vibrava is its ability to preserve momentum via U-turn and pivot in and out. This lets it to fit onto both offensive and defensive teams alike. Major downsides are its reliance on Eviolite and that 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks (cannot check Electabuzz reliable for example) which can be compensated for easily.
Personal Noms
Chimecho C ---> C+ This little Psychic-type is really a hidden gem with tons of utility. Chimecho is pretty flexible and adaptable to meta changes as well as fulfilling various team needs. I've been testing out offensive Colbur with Twave/Knock Off/Psychic/Dazzling Gleam which has been moderately successful. This particular Chimecho set supports teammates through Twave for Speed control, Knocking Off Evios, and having decent power to maintain momentum. Other notable moves include Healing Wish, Trick (both nice on Choice sets), Taunt, Recover, and Calm Mind. Overall I feel Chimecho brings more support and has more solid niches than the mons in C.
Pignite B --->B+/A- Anyone who's used Pignite recently knows how difficult it is for teams to reliably switch into this. Its dual STABs are enough to greatly pressure teams, and it can easily click Wisp to cripple something for the rest of a match. Water-types like Watortle and Frillish can potentially catch a CB Wild Charge so they aren't safe. Pignite is one of the few offensive pokemon that provides some defensive merits. Fire / Fighting combined with Thick Fat allows it to 4x resist Ice- and Fire-types, and also resist Dark-, Grass-, and Steel-type attacks. The main draw back is Pignite's low Speed and Ground / Water weaknesses. Easily brought in off doubles or slow Volt-Switches or U-turns and its weaknesses aren't too big a deal/covered without much effort (i.e add a Grass-type).
Gigalith A- ---> B+ Gigalith struggles to fit onto teams in this fast paced, offensive meta. As a Rocker it isn't bad on its own but when compared to prominent SR users Lairon and Krokorok that's when things go downhill. Gigalith doesn't offer the same defensive utility or similar offensive qualities. Lairon has that Steel typing going for it which gives useful Ice-, Dragon-, and Psychic-type resistances in exchange for 4x Fighting and Ground weakness. Also has Roar, Rock Polish, and a usable 40 Speed stat unlike Gigalith. Krokorok on the other hand is just great right now because Ground / Dark is amazing offensively and useful defensively with Intimidate, it has the Speed and power to exert momentum, and Taunt to block passive pokes and Defog users. It comes down to opportunity cost imo, where Gigalith won't outperform either Rockers majority of the time and can't match what they bring to teams. There are also mons in B+ that are better than it in terms of viability imo (like Mienfoo, Glaceon, Scraggy).
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Post by Chinese Pooh on Nov 9, 2016 11:28:31 GMT
Sorry for anyone bummed out about the US elections... but hey VR changes are finally here to cheer you up!~
Pignite ---> B+ Pidgeot ---> B Fearow ---> B Vibrava ---> B Gothitelle ---> B- Palpitoad ---> B- Marshtomp ----> C+ Ditto ---> C+ Chimecho ---> C+ Weepinbell ---> C- Phione ---> D
Discussion Points:
Raticate ---> A Dragonair ---> B Sliggoo ---> B Trapinch ---> B Frillish ---> C+ Banette ---> C Emolga ---> C Maractus ---> C Bibarel ---> C- Dunsparce ---> C-
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Post by Gary2346 on Nov 11, 2016 5:09:01 GMT
Well now that Licky is banned, I think Electabuzz should jump back to S rank, behind the Simis. While it still has issues dealing with current meta trends such as a massive influx in Gourgeist-L, a few Hippos, and Duosion, it's honestly not that easy to deal with. I think we all know what Buzz is capable of so I'm not going to go into massive detail, but with one of its best counters in the tier gone, I just don't see why it shouldn't be S at this point. The pivot set almost always carries Toxic, so anything that blocks Volt Switch is just easily crippled on the switch, and the stray HP Grass variants deal massive damage to Palpitoad and Marsh anyway. Besides even if Geist walls the fuck out of it, you should be spamming Volt Switch early game anyway while occasionally clicking coverage moves, and Geist-L just baits in the ass loads of wallbreakers we have that Buzz is always paired with. Despite the meta having more ways to deal with it, it's still a huge pain in the ass and on top of that it's easily the best glue in the tier, and can fit on practically any non stall oriented team. I don't think there's really a reason to wait because Buzz was definitely S before Licky was in the tier and all the new drops don't really work against it at all, hell Politoed makes it even more useful.
I honestly don't like Lopunny in A+ at all. Its really cool with what you can do with it and how it's like the only Normal-type that doesn't just get bent over by Lairon, but being completely walled by Geist-L is absolutely horrible for an offensive Pokemon. Outside of piss weak Fire Punch or like Trick AV sets, you just let it in for free almost 100% of the time. On top of that, I think Rat and Purugly give it competition as a Normal-type in general because Rat offers a ton of firepower while Purugly is a lot more reliable offensively in general. I think mid or low A is a much better fit for it, because while it does face competition, it's very unique and offers a much wider range of options compared to other Normal-types which are all very one dimensional for the most part. Healing Wish is one of the best moves in the tier especially with offense being the best play style in the tier, and Lop is actually a good Pokemon in general compared to niche Chimecho and lol Cherrim. Then of course the Trick sets are always very good versus defensive teams so it definitely has a defined niche as an offensive Pokemon with a ton of utility.
Persian should plummet into B- or C+, no need to even bother waiting to see Purugly in action because it's so obviously better than it. Defiant is a very good ability, dual priority in Fake Out and Sucker Punch, and even Fighting coverage for Lairon if you want. Its 3 less Speed is not noteworthy at all outside of missing out on Swoobat, which is usually behind a Sub or at +2 Speed/Defense anyway which Persian can't really beat reliably. I guess NP Persian is a thing but not really there are much better special sweepers out there, besides it can't set up on shit anyway it's so damn frail. Very niche Pokemon now.
Rat is really good right now, it's very hard to deal with when paired with Trapinch, because honestly there's not much that can reliably check it at that point. Personally I prefer Quick Attack because it prevents 50/50s with Sucker and with hazard support it kills everything at +2 found on offense. It doesn't even need +2 to sweep either an unboosted Facade is so hard to switch into and Quick Attack is such a good cleaning move you just need to weaken stuff. Being able to just set up on Geist-L is really funny too and if you pair it with like Lopunny or Wake Up Slap Purugly to weaken Lairon, or just use Trapinch lol. I'd bump it up to A but probably like low A.
As for the Dragons, I honestly just don't like Dragonair too much. I feel like it's stuck in the middle between Sliggoo and Shelgon; Sliggoo runs a superior special set because it can hit Fairies with Sludge Wave and it's stronger overall with significantly higher special bulk, while Shelgon has Brick Break for Lairon and Klang which Dragonair can't really touch, and even at +1 E-Speed is hitting like wet tissue paper. Hell I'd honestly consider using Curse Sliggoo over DD Nair, as it is a far more reliable win con IMO and can be such a bitch to take down. Nair special sets have the advantage of taking on Klang better I guess with Fire Blast and it can also run an interesting tank set with Haze + Draco Meteor but it's still pretty damn weak. Sliggoo and Shelgon just seem like better options in most cases. I'd honestly rather see Nair in some place like B- or C+, it just seems pretty niche atm unless we find some magical set.
Trapinch is definitely B worthy, it has such amazing synergy with so many dangerous Pokemon, as well as trapping Lairon, Buzz, and Klang which all give lots of teams trouble and check so much of the tier by themselves. Trapinch + Purugly or Rat is so dangerous, because Lairon is usually all most teams have for Normal-types. Removing Buzz just makes most matches a hell of a lot easier in general. Yeah I'd definitely bump this shit up, it's very cool right now for its ability to trap top tier threats and support many others.
I don't have experience with the rest of that shit but I will say Banette fucking sucks lol.
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Post by Gary2346 on Nov 13, 2016 6:37:53 GMT
Okay so sorry for double posting but this shit is so dead anyway and I have things to say so I'm not going to wait lol.
Alright well I know this might seem random, but I have hard time understanding why Magmar is ranked so high compared to Heatmor and Pignite. I compare it to a lot like Pidgeot in a way, it's definitely not a bad Pokemon and it can fulfill similar roles that other Fire-types can accomplish, but not to the same degree. Rarely do I ever really decide to slap Fire-types on my team unless I really need to because Fire in general is a really bad defensive typing, so I'm going to primarily want one for its offensive capabilities. Now Magmar has great offenses and it's quite fast, but offensively what really makes it much better than Heatmor? Its Speed tier is definitely a factor, but most of the stuff it checks Heatmor can still check even with its lesser Speed, and on top of its higher offenses its movepool is better for wallbreaking, as it has the ability to break through bulkier Water-types with Giga Drain and can cripple defensive cores with Knock Off. Now Magmar is quite bulky with Eviolite and has decent utility with Wisp, but pure Fire-typing is kinda bad defensively, so if I'm looking for something that can check Ice-types reliably as well as Grass-types mainly Simisage, I'm going to first look at Pignite, which has a much better ability defensively in Thick Fat, better overall bulk, neutrality to Stealth Rock, and a better offensive typing as well which lets it take more things on. Magmar to me just seems like the jack of all trades master of none, and I don't really think that translates to being ranked higher than both of them, I think that means it should be ranked under them but high enough so that people realize that it still has the niche of role compression as well as being able to run a few other viable sets like Scarf. I think it's a harder case than Pidgeot because it's definitely not a Pokemon that's outclassed in every role or can only run one niche set, but it's a Pokemon that has the distinction of being able to preform multiple roles at once but just not excelling in any of them, making it a sub optimal choice on most teams compared to Pignite or Heatmor.
If it were up to me, I'd probably move it down to high B+ right under Pignite, but personally I think Pignite is the best Fire-type in the tier and could probably go higher anyway.
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Post by 5gen on Nov 13, 2016 17:18:40 GMT
Okay so sorry for double posting but this shit is so dead anyway and I have things to say so I'm not going to wait lol. Alright well I know this might seem random, but I have hard time understanding why Magmar is ranked so high compared to Heatmor and Pignite. I compare it to a lot like Pidgeot in a way, it's definitely not a bad Pokemon and it can fulfill similar roles that other Fire-types can accomplish, but not to the same degree. Rarely do I ever really decide to slap Fire-types on my team unless I really need to because Fire in general is a really bad defensive typing, so I'm going to primarily want one for its offensive capabilities. Now Magmar has great offenses and it's quite fast, but offensively what really makes it much better than Heatmor? Its Speed tier is definitely a factor, but most of the stuff it checks Heatmor can still check even with its lesser Speed, and on top of its higher offenses its movepool is better for wallbreaking, as it has the ability to break through bulkier Water-types with Giga Drain and can cripple defensive cores with Knock Off. Now Magmar is quite bulky with Eviolite and has decent utility with Wisp, but pure Fire-typing is kinda bad defensively, so if I'm looking for something that can check Ice-types reliably as well as Grass-types mainly Simisage, I'm going to first look at Pignite, which has a much better ability defensively in Thick Fat, better overall bulk, neutrality to Stealth Rock, and a better offensive typing as well which lets it take more things on. Magmar to me just seems like the jack of all trades master of none, and I don't really think that translates to being ranked higher than both of them, I think that means it should be ranked under them but high enough so that people realize that it still has the niche of role compression as well as being able to run a few other viable sets like Scarf. I think it's a harder case than Pidgeot because it's definitely not a Pokemon that's outclassed in every role or can only run one niche set, but it's a Pokemon that has the distinction of being able to preform multiple roles at once but just not excelling in any of them, making it a sub optimal choice on most teams compared to Pignite or Heatmor. If it were up to me, I'd probably move it down to high B+ right under Pignite, but personally I think Pignite is the best Fire-type in the tier and could probably go higher anyway. I can definitely agree with Magmar going back to A- because the main thing that pushed it to A was the Speed (93 is very decent, outspeeding Krok, Golduck, and Murkrow but is still slower than Saws, Simipour, and Lopunny). Flame Charge with Eviolite is a great late game cleaner and Scarf is a nice revenge killer that exchanges bulk for Speed...So what it has over both Pignite and Heatmor is that Speed. Regarding the "sub optimal" choice compared to Heatmor and Pignite; Magmar can pull off an AoA set with Life Orb similar to Heatmor, which is inferior against more bulky teams because of the absence of Knock Off and Giga Drain (Sucker too but that isn't really common) but fares much better versus offense due to higher Speed. Regarding Pignite, that thing is so good right now. Having better physical bulk and Thick Fat as well as being neutral to SR gives Pignite more defensive utility/switch in opportunities than Magmar. It also has dual STABs which are 100% accurate (I realize Flare Blitz Magmar can be used, but that's generally inferior to special) and Wild Charge to hit Water-types. I definitely agree with Pignite being the best Fire-type rn but the fact of the matter is it struggles the most versus offense, where the low Speed is felt more than ever. Imo Pignite should go to high A-, Magmar low A-, Heatmor stays where it is. tl;dr: Magmar, compared to Heatmor and Pignite, is better versus offense but worse at breaking. Pignite ---> High A- Magmar ---> Low A- Heatmor [unchanged]
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