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Post by 5gen on Aug 6, 2017 20:28:52 GMT
Sun and Moon ZU: Alpha *Art here soon*
Welcome to the official Gen 7 ZU thread. Here we will discuss the newest generation that is Sun and Moon: New drops, Z Moves, Pokemon with altered movesets, abilities, and stats, the meta is almost entirely different than ORAS. Use this thread to discuss the new metagame and feel free to speculate how it will look in the future. Please be reasonable in your thoughts and DO NOT POST ONE LINERS please. Happy posting!
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Post by 5gen on Aug 7, 2017 15:53:09 GMT
Resource Post 1Past gen Pokemon changes: HereSM ZU Banlist: Hitmonchan, Scyther, Gallade, Piloswine, Lanturn, Hariyama, Togetic, Raichu-Alola, Skuntank, Haunter, Sableye, Vileplume, Klingklang, Kangaskhan, Lilligant, Quagsire, Pawniard, Ferroseed, Golurk, Aggron, Audino, Guzzlord, Turtonator, Charizard, Granbull, Liepard, Gurdurr, Sandslash, Kabutops, Lycanroc, Barbaracle, Samurott, Kadabra, Lurantis, Tauros, Regirock, Leavanny, Magmortar, Exeggutor-Alola, Silvally-Ghost, Probopass, Mawile, Shiftry, Manectric, Gastrodon, Pyroar, Cinccino, Primeape, Tangela. *Note, all Pokemon PU and above are banned* *Visual tier list coming* SM ZU Tier List: Abomasnow, Altaria, Ampharos, Arbok, Ariados, Armaldo, Articuno, Avalugg, Banette, Basculin, Bastiodon, Beartic, Beautifly, Beheeyem, Bellossom, Bibarel, Bouffalant, Bronzor, Butterfree, Cacturne, Camerupt, Carbink, Carnivine, Carracosta, Chatot, Chimecho, Corsola, Crabominable, Cradily, Crustle, Dedenne, Delcatty, Delibird, Dewgong, Ditto, Drampa, Drifblim, Dugtrio-Alola, Dunsparce, Dusknoir, Dustox, Eelektross, Electivire, Electrode, Emolga, Exeggutor, Farfetch'd, Fearow, Flareon, Floatzel, Furfrou, Furret, Girafarig, Glaceon, Glalie, Gogoat, Golduck, Golem, Golem-Alola, Gorebyss, Gothitelle, Gourgeist, Gourgeist-Large, Gourgeist-Small, Gourgeist-Super, Grumpig, Gumshoos, Heatmor, Huntail, Hypno, Illumise, Jumpluff, Jynx, Kecleon, Kingler, Kricketune, Lapras, Leafeon, Ledian, Lickilicky, Lopunny, Ludicolo, Lumineon, Lunatone, Luxray, Lycanroc-Midnight, Magcargo, Maractus, Marowak, Masquerain, Meganium, Meowstic, Metang, Mightyena, Miltank, Mothim, Mr. Mime, Mudsdale, Muk, Musharna, Ninetales, Ninjask, Noctowl, Octillery, Oranguru, Oricorio, Oricorio-Pa'u, Oricorio-Pom-Pom, Oricorio-Sensu, Pachirisu, Palossand, Parasect, Passimian, Persian, Persian-Alola, Phione, Pidgeot, Pinsir, Plusle, Politoed, Poliwrath, Purugly, Pyukumuku, Raichu, Rampardos, Rapidash, Raticate, Raticate-Alola, Regice, Regigigas, Relicanth, Roselia, Rotom-Fan, Rotom-Frost, Sawsbuck, Seaking, Servine, Seviper, Shedinja, Shiinoticc, Silvally, Silvally-Bug, Silvally-Dark, Silvally-Dragon, Silvally-Electric, Silvally-Fairy, Silvally-Fighting, Silvally-Fire, Silvally-Flying, Silvally-Grass, Silvally-Ground, Silvally-Ice, Silvally-Poison, Silvally-Psychic, Silvally-Rock, Silvally-Steel, Silvally-Water, Simipour, Simisage, Simisear, Slaking, Solrock, Spinda, Stantler, Stoutland, Stunfisk, Sudowoodo, Sunflora, Swalot, Swanna, Swoobat, Throh, Togedemaru, Torterra, Toucannon, Trevenant, Tropius, Unfezant, Ursaring, Vanilluxe, Vespiquen, Victreebel, Volbeat, Wailord, Walrein, Weezing, Whiscash, Wigglytuff, Wishiwashi, Wormadam, Wormadam-Sandy, Wormadam-Trash, Zangoose, Zebstrika Viable NFEs: Amaura, Bronzor, Clefairy, Combusken, Dusclops, Eevee, Electabuzz, Fletchinder, Fraxure, Frillish, Frogadier, Gabite, Hakamo-o, Hippopotas, Klang, Krokorok, Machoke, Mareanie, Metang, Misdreavus, Monferno, Munchlax, Murkrow, Natu, Onix, Pikachu, Prinplup, Quilladin, Roselia, Servine, Shelgon, Sliggoo, Tentacool, Trapinch, Type: Null, Venipede, Vibrava, Vigoroth, Vullaby, Wartortle, Whirlipede
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Post by 5gen on Aug 7, 2017 15:56:26 GMT
Resource Post 2
Reserved for Role Compendium and Speed Tiers
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Post by 5gen on Aug 15, 2017 15:21:40 GMT
Alpha arrived and brought the tier quite a few unexpected powerhouses. ZU was shaken up with advent of these Pokemon, the top threats of ORAS are but a shadow of what they used to be in most cases. This post will focus on the current metagame and the many Pokemon that run rampant. Weather is one of the most dominant forces in the tier. Sun, rain, sand, and even hail flourish. Here is a more in-depth at each type of weather: Sun: Backed by abusers in Victreebel, Exeggutor, Normalium Z Leafeon, and Firium Z Simisear, this style is easily one of the most broken. Under sun, Victreebel and Exeggutor get their Speed doubled, and are able to spam Solar Beam with little drawback. Their Poison and Psychic STAB respectively allow them to hit most Grass resists. Weather Ball Victreebel can beat Silvally-Steel, Metang, and Bronzor, whom otherwise wall. Normalium Z Leafeon with Double Edge and Swords Dance blows right past Muk, Sliggoo, and heavily dents Vullaby and Altaria. It is able to punch through these common stops to sun, paving the way for either Victreebel or Eggy to sweep. Another Z move abuser under sun is Firium Z Simisear, who can clean through teams with the combination of Fire Blast+Solar Beam+HP Ice. Z Sunny Day gives it a +1 in Speed, allowing it to outpace common Choice Scarf users such as Oricorio-Sensu, Mr. Mime, or Rotom-Frost. Also worth noting is Simisear now outpaces the entire unboosted meta. Sun as a style requires minimal skill to use, as you basically use Volbeat to set sun and proceed to abuse the next 6-7 turns with arguably busted Pokemon. In terms of counterplay, you have bulky Pokemon like Muk, Sliggoo, Vullaby, Altaria, Steel-types such Silvally-Steel, Bronzor, Metang, and Chlorophyll users in Jumpluff, Sawsbuck, or Leafeon. Many of these are self-explanatory, simply relying on type advantage and bulk to stall out sun. In order to actually cover all threats seen on sun, your team will likely turn very bulky or sacrifice a good matchup against other metagame threats. Another style which naturally matches up well versus sun is hail. replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-616344753Hail: One of hail's biggest advantages over other weather types is being able to set hail upon switch-in. Abomasnow came into the tier seemingly out of nowhere, and Vanilluxe gained the ability Snow Warning. Both of these Pokemon disrupt opposing weather teams, ending sun, sand, or rain turns. This largely nullifies abusers such as Victreebel, Exeggutor, Ludicolo, and Armaldo. Typically, teams will use a Water-type to check Ice-types, but both Abomasnow and Vanilluxe basically invalidate them to a large extent. Giga Drain/Wood Hammer and Freeze Dry respectively beat Politoed, Poliwrath, and Silvally-Water (to name a few). It is very difficult for teams to pack an Ice resist just based on these two Pokemon. I won't talk about Slush Rush Beartic because Swift Swim is the better abuser, instead, I'll talk about another potentially broken move courtesy of hail: Aurora Veil. Jynx is the premier setter, with good Speed and Lovely Kiss it can set Aurora Veil without difficulty. Now, the plethora of setup sweepers (i.e Carracosta, Oricorio-Sensu/Pom-Pom, Leafeon, Simis, Zangoose, Raichu, etc.) can set up comfortably most of the time. The effectiveness of hail was almost to be expected with the setters that dropped, Aurora Veil being amazing, and the ability to disrupt opposing weather. Counter play is typically running a Steel to switch into Blizzard, and running a Fire- or Fighting-type to revenge the setters. Against Aurora Veil, kill Jynx as fast as possible, otherwise, beating Veil is absurdly difficult. Rain also acquired two game changing abusers similarly to hail's equally if not better setters. Rain: Rain has always been a viable play style, but when Relicanth, Ludicolo, and Armaldo dropped, they took the style to the next level. Relicanth is the essential r ain lead, providing Rocks+Rain. Ludicolo's Grass-type gives it a great niche over other Swift Swim Pokemon, being able to nail opposion Water-types with STAB Giga Drain. Good natural bulk also means priority is not really an issue. Under rain, Hydro Pump/Giga Drain/Ice Beam is very difficult to switch into, and the threat of Z Focus Blast to beat Lickilicky and Silvally-Steel further increases Ludicolo's breaking potential. Armaldo on the other hand is a physical attacker with access to Swords Dance. Stone Edge/EQ/Knock Off or X-Scissor or Aqua Jet is fantastic coverage, being able to break through common defensive cores such as Gourgeist-Super+Lickilicky. Offensive Pokemon have little hope of surving attacks from Armaldo, and it's great bulk + Rock typing doesn't leave it vulnerable to most priority. However, it is prone to being worn down. Other rain abusers include Gorebyss, who is a complete powerhouse under rain (Base 114 SpA+access to Shell Smash) and SD Beartic. Now with Base 130 Attack, Beartic can plough through walls such as Gourgeist-Super, Bronzor, and Miltank to name a few. However, these two Pokemon are easy to wear down and don't get many opportunities to set up. Finally, Zebstrika was a nice addition to rain, which was a staple in ORAS PU rain for its ability to take on Grass- or Electric-types based on its ability, and for its high Speed. All in all a very strong playstyle holding some of the tiers dominant Pokemon. Counterplay in the meta includes the aforementioned hail setters, Dry Skin Jynx, Choice Scarf Raichu, Poliwrath, Muk, Sliggoo, CB Floatzel, and Cacturne. More exists, but those are more of the better ones. Sand: The success of sand is largely attributed to Sand Rush Stoutland and obviously to Hippopotas for setting sand upon switch-in. The raw power of Stoutland and solid all around stats (bar SpA) make it a unique sweeper/cleaner. It can clean through offensive teams, as only Choice Scarf Raichu and faster outspeed Stout under sand. It can break down balance teams; Return/Superpower/Crunch is excellent coverage and very difficult to resist. In this meta most teams carry one Normal resist, of which Stoutland can wear down fairly quickly. It even appreciates being burned, because Facade becomes twice as strong whilst ignoring the lowered Attack. Sand also has Alolan Dugtrio as an abuser, which appreciates the attack boost greatly from Sand Force. Much like hail, sand thrives on disrupting weather, but unlike hail, the main abuser in Stoutland gains a Speed boost to add to the raw power it carries. In terms of counterplay in the metagame, Gourgeist-Super, Machoke, Steel-types, Relicanth/Carracosta, all pressure CB Stout to click the right move (Life Orb may be used but lacks the power to bust through these healthy checks). Speedy Pokemon such as Scarf Raichu can outspeed and threaten Stoutland, while Pokemon such as Monferno and Cacturne have access to strong priority. Moving aside from weather, let's take a look at some other top tier Pokemon: Altaria: Altaria is mainly here for its defensive capabilities. Solid defensive typing, good bulk, reliable recovery, Natural Cure, this Pokemon has so much going for it. Also has good Speed for a wall. Checks many Pokemon, most notably Leafeon, Combusken, Roselia, etc...Altaria is also able to run special sets or Dragon Dance Z Fly sets which make it fairly versatile. Beheeyem: My Lord is this Pokemon strong. Psychic types in general have been good in alpha, Beheeyem goes beyond good. It is a great Pokemon at the moment, able to punish most of its switch-ins (appropriate coverage or Psyshock for special walls). Choice Specs brings immediate power, NP/CM break non-pyukumuku stall, OTR gives offense a lot of trouble, and a vast movepool give it a high degree of unpredictability alongside Z moves. Cacturne: All out attacking Cacturne is a menace to switch into, and STAB Sucker Punch makes up for its low Speed. Muk and Clefairy are two great switch-ins, but luckily for Cacturne the meta isn't really favouring them. Checks rain well due to Water Absorb and takes advantage of the popularity of various Psychic-types (Beheeyem, Jynx [fears lovely kiss though], Metang). Crabominable: This thing has no switch-ins except Slowpoke, seriously. Phenomenal offensive typing in Ice/Fighting, high Attack, and high BP moves like Close Combat and Iron Fist boosted Ice Hammer/Ice Punch leave us searching for anything that can take a hit (...Slowpoke). Under Trick Room, Crabominable is at its best, tearing faster teams to shreds. Against slower teams it also performs well, but they aren't as common in the meta. Typically, a team carries something that can revenge Crabominable, such as Simisear or Swanna, otherwise it's decent bulk makes it hard to revenge. Low Special Defence is what should be taken advantage of, and defensively Ice/Fighting has some very exploitable weaknesses. Drampa: Another insane wallbreaker, Drampa boasts high Special Attack and a wide array of coverage to pick apart resists or trending Pokemon (i.e Tbolt or Energy Ball for Water-types, Fire Blast for Steel-types, Focus Blast for Lickilicky). With Calm Mind, Roost, and solid bulk, Drampa finds numerous opportunitues to setup. In addition, Sap Sipper makes it an excellent Grass check, Cloud Nine can check weather, and Berserk+Roost is a nasty combo for bulkier sets. Fighting-types: From Mienfoo, Pignite, and Scraggy to Passimian, Monferno, Combusken, Machoke, Poliwrath, and Crabominable. Honestly I can only see these Pokemon getting better as time goes on aka Musharna leaves. In all seriousness though, the metagame has good answers to Fighting-types, so it's a case of which one matches up well vs your team. I don't think any are broken, maybe Combusken or Crab (maybe), just a case of Fighting-types being really good. Grass-types: We got plenty of good ones this gen. Sun abusers, Roselia, Shiinotic, Leafeon, Cacturne, Gourgeist-Super, and Ludicolo. All good yet differ from each other in their respective roles. Normal-types: SM ZU has a lot of good Normal-types. Wallbreakers such as CB Stout, Ursaring, and Zangoose are fantastic and can punish many Normal resists. Vigoroth, Type: Null, Bouffalant and Lickilicky, all can pull off specially bulky sets effectively. The large amount of viable Normal-types really pushes teams to pack one or two resists, and I find myself having to commonly run Gourgeist-Super to cover them. Water-types: There are so many options you tend to forget some exist. Three Shell Smash mons (Carracosta, Gorebyss, Huntail) of their caliber is almost too good to be true. Coincidentally, Poliwrath checks Costa and Huntail, and really is just a great blanket check/splashable mon (no pun intended). Lapras I haven't seen too much of or used because I don't find it easy to fit on teams and the meta is not treating it well. Pyukumuku gave stall an essential role in an Unaware mon, and is really quite annoying to face. Floatzel, Basculin, and Swanna are all here as well. Each of which are amazing offensive Water-types. *Gen 7 sprites are too big, got lazy for the rest*In conclusion, alpha is absolutely fun and it's great to explore such a fresh metagame. I know I left pokemon out but I don't want to be the first to talk about everything, plus this is all mobile so I'm tired of typing. Have fun with the rest of alpha, and I encourage everyone to post n_n. Musharnaa is broken, hope PU bans that.
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Post by sacrificed on Sept 5, 2017 14:47:52 GMT
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Post by rennyjesus0 on Sept 8, 2017 17:55:55 GMT
Taking into account the last round of rises and drops, we have:
SM ZU Banlist: Hitmonchan, Piloswine, Lanturn, Togetic, Raichu-Alola, Skuntank, Haunter, Sableye, Vileplume, Kangaskhan, Lilligant, Quagsire, Ferroseed, Golurk, Aggron, Audino, Guzzlord, Charizard, Granbull, Liepard, Gurdurr, Sandslash, Kabutops, Lycanroc, Lurantis, Tauros, Regirock, Leavanny, Magmortar, Exeggutor-Alola, Silvally-Ghost, Probopass, Mawile, Shiftry, Gastrodon, Pyroar, Primeape, Drampa, Musharna, Swanna, Crustle, Floatzel, Eelektross, Golem, Poliwrath, Torterra, Zangoose, Masquerain, Miltank, Mr. Mime, Jynx, Gourgeist-Super, Persian-Alola, Weezing, Oricorio-Sensu. *Note, all Pokemon PU and above are banned*
SM ZU Tier List: Abomasnow, Altaria, Ampharos, Arbok, Ariados, Armaldo, Articuno, Avalugg, Banette, Basculin, Bastiodon, Beartic, Beautifly, Beheeyem, Bellossom, Bibarel, Bouffalant, Bronzor, Butterfree, Cacturne, Camerupt, Carbink, Carnivine, Carracosta, Chatot, Chimecho, Corsola, Crabominable, Cradily, Dedenne, Delcatty, Delibird, Dewgong, Ditto, Drifblim, Dugtrio-Alola, Dunsparce, Dusknoir, Dustox, Electivire, Electrode, Emolga, Exeggutor, Farfetch'd, Fearow, Flareon, Furfrou, Furret, Girafarig, Glaceon, Glalie, Gogoat, Golduck, Golem-Alola, Gorebyss, Gothitelle, Gourgeist, Gourgeist-Large, Gourgeist-Small, Grumpig, Gumshoos, Heatmor, Huntail, Hypno, Illumise, Jumpluff, Kadabra, Kecleon, Kingler, Kricketune, Lapras, Leafeon, Ledian, Lickilicky, Lopunny, Ludicolo, Lumineon, Lunatone, Luxray, Lycanroc-Midnight, Magcargo, Manectric, Maractus, Marowak, Meganium, Meowstic, Metang, Mightyena, Mothim, Mudsdale, Muk, Ninetales, Ninjask, Noctowl, Octillery, Oranguru, Oricorio, Oricorio-Pa'u, Oricorio-Pom-Pom, Pachirisu, Palossand, Parasect, Passimian, Pawniard, Persian, Phione, Pidgeot, Pinsir, Plusle, Politoed, Purugly, Pyukumuku, Raichu, Rampardos, Rapidash, Raticate, Raticate-Alola, Regice, Regigigas, Relicanth, Roselia, Rotom-Fan, Rotom-Frost, Sawsbuck, Seaking, Servine, Seviper, Shedinja, Shiinoticc, Silvally, Silvally-Bug, Silvally-Dark, Silvally-Dragon, Silvally-Electric, Silvally-Fairy, Silvally-Fighting, Silvally-Fire, Silvally-Flying, Silvally-Grass, Silvally-Ground, Silvally-Ice, Silvally-Poison, Silvally-Psychic, Silvally-Rock, Silvally-Steel, Silvally-Water, Simipour, Simisage, Simisear, Slaking, Solrock, Spinda, Stantler, Stoutland, Stunfisk, Sudowoodo, Sunflora, Swalot, Swoobat, Tangela, Throh, Togedemaru, Toucannon, Trevenant, Tropius, Turtonator, Unfezant, Ursaring, Vespiquen, Victreebel, Volbeat, Wailord, Walrein, Whiscash, Wigglytuff, Wishiwashi, Wormadam, Wormadam-Sandy, Wormadam-Trash, Zebstrika
Viable NFEs: Amaura, Bronzor, Clefairy, Combusken, Dusclops, Eevee, Electabuzz, Fletchinder, Fraxure, Frillish, Frogadier, Gabite, Hakamo-o, Hippopotas, Kadabra, Klang, Krokorok, Machoke, Mareanie, Metang, Misdreavus, Monferno, Munchlax, Murkrow, Natu, Onix, Pawniard, Pikachu, Prinplup, Quilladin, Roselia, Servine, Shelgon, Sliggoo, Tangela, Tentacool, Trapinch, Type: Null, Venipede, Vibrava, Vigoroth, Vullaby, Wartortle, Whirlipede
OFFENSIVE THREATS Abomasnow, Altaria, Basculin, Beheeyem, Bellossom, Bibarel, Bouffalant, Butterfree, Cacturne, Carracosta, Chatot, Combusken, Crabominable, Drifblim, Dugtrio-Alola, Electivire, Exeggutor, Fearow, Fraxure, Gabite, Gorebyss, Hakamo-o, Huntail, Hypno, Jumpluff, Kadabra, Kecleon, Lapras, Leafeon, Lickilicky, Ludicolo, Manectric, Monferno, Muk, Ninetales, Ninjask, Oricorio-Pom-Pom, Passimian, Pawniard, Pinsir, Raichu, Rapidash, Raticate-Alola, Rotom-Frost, Sawsbuck, Silvally, Silvally-Dark, Silvally-Dragon, Silvally-Fairy, Silvally-Fighting, Simipour, Simisage, Simisear, Stoutland, Toucannon, Turtonator, Ursaring, Vespiquen, Victreebel, Wishiwashi, Zebstrika.
DEFENSIVE THREATS Altaria Articuno, Avalugg, Bouffalant, Bronzor, Camerupt, Carbink, Carracosta, Cradily, Dusknoir, Gourgeist-Large, Gourgeist-Small, Grumpig, Lapras, Leafeon, Lickilicky, Lumineon, Meowstic, Metang, Mudsdale, Muk, Oricorio-Pom-Pom, Palossand, Pyukumuku, Rotom-Fan, Shiinoticc, Silvally, Silvally-Fairy, Silvally-Poison, Silvally-Steel, Silvally-Water, Solrock, Stunfisk, Tangela, Throh, Togedemaru, Clefairy, Dusclops, Klang, Munchlax, Prinplup, Quilladin, Sliggoo, Type: Null, Vigoroth, Vullaby
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Post by rennyjesus0 on Sept 8, 2017 21:28:38 GMT
Sorry about the double post, but I would like to bring a different issue here. Since we are technically in Beta Stage, I think that using Kokoloko metodology could be the best for us aldo. In that regard, I would like to bring to the chopping block a few busted mons:
* Victreebel: I know sun has a lot of abusers, but this one is the worst offender IMO. Solar Beam/Weather Ball/Sludge Bomb is amazing coverage and with its power we have to resort to faster Chlorophyll mons to beat it (and none of Sawsbuck, Leafeon or Jumpluff enjoy switching in Sludge Bombs or Weather Balls). The cherry topping on this one is Sleep Powder, that allow Vic to circunvent a LOT of troubling pokes. Heck, I woulf even argue that just Weather Ball + Sludge Bomb gives it enough coverage to just plow through a lot of things, giving it the chance of setupping a Growth and ravage through teams, prepared or not...
* Carracosta: This shit is simply too much for ZU to handle... it is bulky enough to ensure setup against so many things and LO+Aqua Jet can blow through almost all of its offensive answers. Lets not even talk about it in rain teams because that's even worse...
* Gorebyss: Another weather offender. Gorebyss is bulkier than many would expect, giving it more than a few opportunities to set up... and even without setup, just Rain boosted Hydro Vortex from such a speedy and moderately bulky mon is just too much for ZU to handle...
I would like to add that while Turtonator and Huntail might also seem broken, their original power is not as "broken" as the other two smashers due to lower base attacking stats and lower base power moves in general.
* Mudsdale: This thing simply never dies. It needs heavily invested special Ice/Grass/Water moves to beat it because it is really bulky. That makes this horse just restrictive in team building.
Another things that I think might be broken now or later: * Ludicolo. * Exeggutor. * Pyukumuku (Another thing that never dies). * Turtonator. * Huntail. * Abomasnow. * Throh. * Kecleon. * Vigoroth.
See ya guys!
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